Categories: Bad Theology, The Church, Thinking on Thoughts of Thinkers
10 thought(s) on this thought:
Anonymous said...
I can't see the video, so I don't really know what's going on
here, and even if I could, judging from what I've read that its
a 20/20 deal, who knows how accurate it is. Are we talking like
teenage preachers being allowed to preach every now and then?
or like an 8 year old kid being the sole teacher of a
congregation? or sitting in an office and counseling people
too? The term "pastor" is used rather loosely sometimes.
October 17, 2007 2:03 PM
TheoJunkie said...
The original link was/is to the Pyromaniac's blog, which
provided a link to a copy of the ABC 20/20 story. I have
updated my post to provide a link directly to the 20/20 story.
However, I wasn't commenting on the 20/20 story, except that it
reveals some churches are using children as pastors. I'm
commenting on the concept of child pastors generally.
No... I would not have too much of problem with a child
occasionally preaching from the pulpit as a "guest preacher"--
introduced by the pastor of the church (i.e., in this case the
Pastor inherently takes responsibility for the content of the
guest sermon by the act of "inviting" the child to give a
sermon). I would expect that this sermon would be presented "in
the context of" the actual pastor's sermon (or series)...
presented clearly as "under the covering" of the pastor, so to
speak.
However, I do have a problem with a child being a regular
preacher or otherwise assuming the office of pastor (even if it
is "associate pastor of teaching and preaching" or some such
title).
The term "pastor" may be loosely used in some churches, but the
Bible is clear concerning the roles and responsibilities of a
pastor (that is, an Elder/Overseer), and seems also -- as
noted-- to assume that these individuals are adults.
Also of note: The Sunday sermon is not any less of a
shepherding function than counseling or leading a ministry.
"Feeding the sheep" is part of what a shepherd does. So even if
the shepherd leaves the tending of stables and the recovery of
lost sheep to others, feeding is still a shepherding role.
I realize my original post seemed to suggest these were
separate roles.
October 17, 2007 2:32 PM
TheoJunkie said...
PS... I note that one of the children featured in the 20/20
story is seen "slaying" people (presumably in the Spirit).
Never mind the validity of this practice for now... It is
something beyond "preaching".
October 17, 2007 2:35 PM
Turretinfan said...
Tim was young, though not that young.
Ordination is good way to prevent this sort of thing from
happening. You'll note that both the children are "lay"
preachers.
-Turretinfan
October 17, 2007 5:15 PM
TheoJunkie said...
Yes... we seem to get the idea that Tim(othy) was at least a
late teen, if not twenty-something. But Paul doesn't indicate
really, except to talk about his "youth".
As "lay" preachers, it would seem that all they should do is
preach... it seems they were taking on more of a (/an
authoritarian) ministry role besides just sharing the gospel
with a microphone.
By the way... anyone who shares the gospel is preaching. So I
am not talking about that type of "preaching". If you have some
kid all fired up about the gospel and they stand up there and
testify and exhort... I would be glad they had the courage and
faith to do it.
October 17, 2007 5:38 PM
Turretinfan said...
"anyone who shares the gospel is preaching"
That's not what presbyterians have traditionally thought.
-Turretinfan
October 19, 2007 5:49 PM
TheoJunkie said...
TF,
I'm afraid I am not able to extract the point of your last
comment from the information you provided.
During my time as a presbyterian, and in my interactions with
presbyterians, I have not encountered them having any
difficulty with the terms used in passages such as Luke 9:6.
Please explain.
October 19, 2007 11:08 PM
Turretinfan said...
TJ,
I'm not sure what you mean by "having any difficulty with the
terms used in passages such as Luke 9:6." So I'm not sure I can
meaningfully comment on that.
What I was trying to say:
Sharing the gospel is not equivalent with preaching. Sharing
the gospel is one part of preaching, but the gospel can also be
shared in other contexts than preaching.
Traditionally (and I cannot say whether the PCUSA has also
abandoned this tradition) presbyterian churches have required
licenses for preaching. Typically that license takes the form
of an ordination to the ministry or a license to preach under
the supervision of a presbytery.
-Turretinfan
October 20, 2007 10:29 AM
TheoJunkie said...
TF,
If you re-read my comment, you should be able to see that I was
saying that "when we preach the gospel, this is technically a
form of preaching... and so therefore I am NOT talking about
that type of preaching." The point being, we (or at least I)
would encourage children to "preach the gospel" (i.e., share
it)... and so the point of this post was not to say they
shouldn't share the gospel.
Note that my original post clearly stated that children should
not be pastors.
I also stated rather clearly (or so I thought), that I include
routine teaching from the pulpit-- in any form-- to be a
pastoral role... and therefore children should not be put in
that position. I also emphasized that IF they are allowed on
occasion to stand at the podium and address the congregation,
it should be only very occasionally, and under the covering of
the actual pastor, who will be personally responsible for the
content of the child's message.
I am not here to discuss, much less defend, PCUSA. I believe
you are aware that I left PCUSA because I find they are
slipping from the truth. However, I will note that while I am
not the most well traveled of humans, my tiny little world has
included quite a few interactions with reformed presbyterians
of various sorts.
It appears that you are taking a rather adversarial tone
against me lately. Perhaps you would like to elaborate either
here or in e-mail where you feel I have strayed. At the moment,
I have the impression that my thoughts on prophecy have caused
you to consider me in general error if not utterly insane,
based on the sudden change of tone in you coincident to my
prophecy post. I would appreciate the favor of an explanation
at your convenience.
Thanks.
October 20, 2007 12:10 PM
Turretinfan said...
TJ wrote: "If you re-read my comment, you should be able to see
that I was saying that "when we preach the gospel, this is
technically a form of preaching... and so therefore I am NOT
talking about that type of preaching." The point being, we (or
at least I) would encourage children to "preach the gospel"
(i.e., share it)... and so the point of this post was not to
say they shouldn't share the gospel."
I respond:
My point was that technically sharing the gospel is not
preaching. I apologize for the confusion that my nit-picking
engendered.
In general, I otherwise agree with you. I didn't mean to
suggest that you had said that children should be pastors.
-Turretinfan
October 22, 2007 9:39 AM
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)
Back to Top of Home Page (Reload)
I am not God.
the Christ and my Lord, that He lived a perfect life in obedience to
the Law, that He was killed on a cross and suffered the unmitigated
wrath of the Father for the sins that I have committed-- He became sin
for me, to His Glory alone. He was buried and was resurrected to life,
as the firstborn of many brothers, by the power of the Holy Spirit who
now lives and works in me that I will and do according to God's good
pleasure. Jesus Christ, second person of the triune God, incarnated as
a son of Adam, is the truth, the way, and the life. No one comes to
the Father except through Him. Yet also, everyone who trusts in Him
will never be put to shame. Amen.
****
Why "anonymous"?
Because who I am -- or am not -- matters not. Fear God, test all
things against Scripture.
Profile/Contact
Thoughts Still Thinking
* Bash TheoJunkie Here
Thoughts Done Thought
* v 2008 (17)
+ v 2/17/08 (2)
o Thought Number 134... Wars and Rumors... Carry On ...
o Thought Number 133... When Bad Things Happen
+ |> 2/10/08 (4)
o Thought Number 132... Clean Your Screen
o Thought Number 131... Mike Huckabee, Still Candida...
o Thought Number 130... Your desire shall be for you...
o Thought Number 129... Free Will / God's Sovereignt...
+ |> 2/3/08 (3)
o Thought Number 128... Bash TheoJunkie Here.
o Thought Number 127... I thought it was "Early to B...
o Thought Number 126... I Hope God Is Working This
+ |> 1/20/08 (2)
o Thought Number 125... God Works All Things
o Thought Number 124... News From the Front
+ |> 1/13/08 (2)
o Thought Number 123... I think...
o Thought Number 122... Slander vs. Experience
+ |> 1/6/08 (4)
o Thought Number 121... Can a Woman EVER Teach a Man...
o Thought Number 120... Satan's Clause is Coming to ...
o Thought Number 119... Personalities, Sanctificatio...
o Thought Number 118... When "Please Forgive Me" Doe...
* |> 2007 (117)
+ |> 12/30/07 (2)
o Thought Number 117... A Chimp is to a Man as a For...
o Thought Number 116... Preservation of the Saints I...
+ |> 12/23/07 (1)
o Thought Number 115... A New Meaning to the Term "P...
+ |> 12/16/07 (2)
o Thought Number 114... Another Quote of the Day
o Thought Number 113... Me as a Catholic, or, When I...
+ |> 12/9/07 (1)
o Thought Number 112... Should Churches Have Armed G...
+ |> 12/2/07 (1)
o Thought Number 111... BUSY!
+ |> 11/25/07 (7)
o Thought Number 110... Until They Have Walked a Mil...
o Thought Number 109... Blogger Steamrolls Over His...
o Thought Number 108... Today on my iGoogle, Part Zw...
o Thought Number 107... Today on my iGoogle
o Thought Number 106... Meanwhile, On the Playground...
o Thought Number 105... The Bible is Full of "Exhibi...
o Thought Number 104... Of Course It's Important, Bu...
+ |> 11/18/07 (2)
o Thought Number 103... Thanksgiving Cannot Occur i...
o Thought Number 102... This Is the Way Church Is Su...
+ |> 11/11/07 (4)
o Thought Number 101... Shameless Parental Pride
o Thought Number 100... Response to Dan
o Thought Number 99... Thank You Sir May I Have Anot...
o Thought Number 98... Finishing Up The Baptism Vers...
+ |> 11/4/07 (6)
o Thought Number 97... Good News
o Thought Number 96... Pray and Give Thanks Even for...
o Thought Number 95... Tithing Testimony
o Thought Number 94... Atheism: The Second Oldest Re...
o Thought Number 93... Time to Go to Work.
o Thought Number 92.. Reality Check
+ |> 10/28/07 (10)
o Thought Number 91... Here is another one I found.
o Thought Number 90... The Gospel is Simplicity Itse...
o Thought Number 89... The End Is Ever Closer, Prais...
o Thought Number 88... Barking Up the Wrong Logical ...
o Thought Number 87... David Was Not Asking to Be Cl...
o Thought Number 86... Nevermind "Age of Accountabil...
o Thought Number 85... Is "Affirmation of the Nicene...
+ |> 10/21/07 (11)
+ |> 10/14/07 (7)
+ |> 10/7/07 (10)
+ |> 9/30/07 (5)
+ |> 9/23/07 (7)
+ |> 9/16/07 (3)
+ |> 9/9/07 (2)
+ |> 9/2/07 (7)
+ |> 8/26/07 (3)
+ |> 8/19/07 (10)
+ |> 8/12/07 (5)
+ |> 8/5/07 (1)
+ |> 6/17/07 (1)
+ |> 6/3/07 (3)
+ |> 5/27/07 (2)
+ |> 5/13/07 (1)
+ |> 4/29/07 (1)
+ |> 4/22/07 (1)
+ |> 2/11/07 (1)
Feed For Thoughts
Subscribe to this blog
Add to Google Reader or Homepage
Subscribe to this blog in a reader
Grouped Think
* Atheists and Other Creatures (10)
* Bad Theology (14)
* Baptism (23)
* Bible Conundrums (2)
* But Give Thanks Always (12)
* Christology (2)
* Common Grace (4)
* Creation (2)
* Discipleship (1)
* Election and Predestination (1)
* Evolution (1)
* God's Omnipotence (5)
* God's Omnipresence (4)
* God's Omniscience (1)
* God's Sovereignty (2)
* Heaven (1)
* Hell (3)
* How Wretched Am I? (1)
* Huh? (Or-- This is Pure Whack) (5)
* Human Will (1)
* I Am Wretched (5)
* Israel (1)
* It's a Sick Sick World (9)
* Justification (2)
* Lest We Forget (13)
* Men and Women (1)
* Preservation of the Saints (2)
* Random Synaptic Background Noise (27)
* Reformers (1)
* Sanctification (2)
* Sola Scriptura (5)
* Spiritual Gifts (6)
* The Atonement (1)
* The Church (6)
* The Creeds (2)
* The Law (1)
* The New Covenant (1)
* Thinking on Thoughts of Thinkers (19)
* This is What's Good About The News (11)
* Titus 3 and Stewardship of the Time We Have Been Given (1)
* Total Depravity (5)
* What God Has Done For Me Lately (3)
* What is a Christian? (9)
* What is Life (5)
Other People's Thoughts
* Answering Islam
* Arminian Chronicles
* Desiring God / John Piper
* Leaning Towards Grace
* Ligonier Ministries / RC Sproul
* Monergism.com
* Phil Johnson's List of Really Bad Theology
* Reformed Musings
* Resurgence
* The Thoughts of Francis Turretin
* PyroManiacs
Thoughts Worth Thinking About
_________________________________________________________________
Thoughts That People Recommended in the Comments
* Centuri0n on "The Hand Off"
* Counterfeit Miracles (book), B. Warfield
There Is Only One Truth
Get this alternative to your tired bumper-fish at www.OneTruth.com
Always preach the Gospel...
use words if necessary.
Do as the Bereans did...
____________________
Search the Bible
...at BibleGateway.com
"The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea,
and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these
Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the
word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if
these things were so."
-- Acts 17:10-11
Ummmmm! He said "damn"...
Caution kids! Biblical terminology is used in this blog...
Romans 12:3 Applied...
Romans 12:3 Applied...
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think
of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober
judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has
assigned.
TheoJunkie is Exactly This Famous and No More:
... Give or take a million...
This is not a Test.
If I only The LAW was the test. You failed. The GOSPEL, in stark
failure under the law ... made truth by the only One who passed the
test. Christ did the work, and gives His perfect test grade gladly to
all who trust Him in this grace. Pray that God shows His Church
(again) this simple truth. Sadly, many believers have been led astray
for a season into thinking that salvation by grace alone is just too
good to be good.... having been taught and now teaching that the
Gospel is a test-- fail IT and you go to hell. The Gospel is MERCY...
not justice. The LAW condemns. The Gospel only saves.
Grace is not Justice.
...get used to that.
They Make Me Post This Stuff Against My Will:
Dell Coupon Codes
Will the Real TheoJunkie Please Stand Up
Just a disclaimer (with no prejudice)... I am not these people (or
this person, as the case may be):
* Phillip K. Campbell, a.k.a. Theojunkie, of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
* Kent Campbell, a.k.a., Theojunkie, of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
No comments:
Post a Comment